Libraries Contain Multitudes

Are libraries quiet study tombs, book repositories, or community spaces? Spoiler alert, they’re all of the above and more. Join Ashley, Kym, and Matt, as they discuss their journeys into the field of librarianship, why none of them planned to apply for jobs at the State Library, crush opinions about what a library should or shouldn’t be, and what they think might be the future of the field. 

What we’re reading

• Silver Nitrate by Silvia Moreno Garcia
• The Covenant of Water by Abraham Verghese
• It’s All or Nothing, Vale by Andrea Beatriz Arango

State resources we mentioned:

• The Palace Project App
• The CT Library for Accessible Books

Credit:

“Wholesome”

Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)

Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/be/3.0/

The Connecticut State Library. Preserving the Past to Inform the Future!

Transcript

Kym (00:07)
Welcome to Under the Charter Oak, a podcast of the Connecticut State Library where we preserve the past to inform the future. My name is Kym Powe. I'm the children and young adult consultant with the Connecticut State Library.

Ashley (00:19)
I'm Ashley Sklar. I'm the Adult Services and Community Engagement Consultant.

Matt (00:24)
And I'm Matt Geeza. I'm the director of the Middletown Library Service Center and the Connecticut Library for Accessible Books.

Kym (00:30)
And the most important question of the day is Matt, what are you reading?

Matt (00:35)
Well, right now I am reading Silver Nitrate by Silvia Moreno Garcia and that every time around this year when it gets to be late September, early October, I like to read something in the horror genre. And so this book fits into the horror genre. You might know Moreno-Garica Garcia's work. She's the author of Mexican Gothic, which was quite popular recently. So same author. And I'm just a few pages in, so I can't say more but I'm looking forward to my sort of Halloween read.

Kym (01:09)
I love that. Ashley, what you got?

Ashley (01:11)
I don't think I've ever read a horror fiction book. I know. Okay, sorry. Okay. I was like, huh, horror, right. It's seasonal. It makes sense. I'm reading The Covenant of Water by Abraham Verghese. I looked up how to pronounce that this time around. He's an author and physician, and this is an epic novel. think it's like 800 pages, and I am just...barely into it, but it is a novel that takes place in South India. And it's kind of a multi-generational family epic that starts in 1900 and goes all the way through 1977. opening is a 12 year old girl is on her way to her wedding to a 40 year old male. So again, this is 1900, So I think, I think it's like my little marker. I'm reading it a digital book and it's like, you're 6 % in. So there's lots more to come. So I might still be reading this next time you see me.

Kym (02:07)
That's it, maybe the third time too. I mean, that could potentially be a horror, who knows? That's not sounding great. And I am reading a middle grade book, It's All or Nothing, Vale by Andrea Beatriz Arango. And it's really awesome. It's about a middle schooler who was like a champion fencer of all things. think this is the first fencing book I've ever read. But in the beginning of the book, she is like post an accident that like took her out of commission for four months. There were surgeries, there's physical therapy. And it's kind of sad because it seems like she believes that fencing is all she is. Like it's more important than friends. It's the only thing she has. She wants to be like the best Puerto Rican fencer like of all time. But post accident when she goes back to her first like fencing class, like it's not going great. And like to you know, guess like add salt to the wound. There's a new girl who dared to show up and be really good. Val Valentine describes the new girl as like a cooler version of her. So it's right. It's all a journey, but there's you can tell there's going to be some personal growth, some friendship, some learning, some there's some family strife, a really good sibling relationship, which I always love in any kind of book when siblings are doing awesome sibling things. So yeah, I'm pretty pumped about it. It's a time. So today we are talking about libraries. Imagine that. But more like why libraries, how libraries, what do they even do? Like why, what is the point of libraries? And it seems like the best way to talk about that, right? 

We're three librarians in a room. And we all got to our particular positions in the state library via very different routes. And so it seems like that's kind of like a great place to start before we dive into the ecosystem of libraries. Like let's talk about ourselves. This is our podcast after all. Ashley your journey into libraries is really interesting because it didn't actually start there. Like you didn't wake up as a seven year old. Like I can't wait to be a librarian. So what are you doing here? How'd you get here friend?

Ashley (04:42)
That's a great question. I love this question and hopefully this will give everyone a little bit of context about who we are when you're tuning in to listen to us. So I did wake up as a seven year old loving the arts and that is where my career, the visual arts, I should be specific, ⁓ and that's kind of where my career started. So the first, I don't know, 10 plus years or so I worked in the arts. I was an art history major. I did a graduate degree in art history.

But my thesis in graduate school was on public art and community. And that really sort of started me thinking about libraries. I was really close with the librarian when I was in grad school. And that kind of planted a tiny seed that kind of percolated over the years. And I think after working in a bunch of different kinds of arts organizations, both on the West Coast and the East Coast, I realized that libraries offered kind of a more flexible and open and creative community oriented space than say, at least in my experience, a museum or a gallery. I really wanted to be involved in a space that was able to support kind of emerging of all of these different things, whether it was community desire and arts or food security and digital access. And I didn't want to feel limited. And the libraries just especially public libraries I'm thinking of, that's that's where my library career started in a public library. And that felt like a place that could create an openness for all of these different kinds of possibilities. 

So. I don't know if you would call that like an academic reason for being in a public library or an ideological one or a creative one, maybe with my arts background. But I feel really lucky to have then landed in a public library where I was able to sort of do and kind of implement a lot of these kinds of ideas, working with different neighborhoods and different communities and different kinds of organizations to make library spaces. Vibrant. Yeah.

Kym (06:50)
I vibrance is a really good word, having a public library background myself. But Matt, your journey was a little bit different, and you have like school libraries peppered in your background, which I certainly do not. So like, what was your journey?

Matt (07:07)
Sure, so I grew up as a kid as a library user. I was always attracted to books and the library was the place I went after school for homework and then as an undergraduate I was a history major so I was a, because of that major I was a very library focused and my usage and gathering information and things like that. But my first job out of college was actually working at a museum and at some point, yeah. So at some point, you know, I really liked that job, but I didn't know if that was where I could stay for ever. And I started to think about what was next in my career. And I sort of had one of those aha moments that, you know, I don't always know that they happen, but I very clearly remember thinking.

Ashley (07:35)
that.

Matt (07:59)
I know what I need to do. I need to become a librarian. And it sort of just kind of clicked. And I started to talk to family friends who were librarians, colleagues at the museum where I worked. There was a library. So I talked to them about the field and kind of did some information and then dove right into the library school. And it wasn't until afterwards when I had been, as you said, I then came out of library school and started working in schools. And it wasn't some point until later when I was working in schools I realized what really attracted me in the sort of through line through my career was connecting people to information and that was something that I think I've always been passionate about. So whether it was at the museum describing how things work and helping people relate to historical concepts in the modern world and how all of those things relate or helping with those first jobs out of library school was then at a high school library, so was helping kids with research projects and things like that. And I just loved the idea of helping them find sources, connecting them with information. And another one of the side benefits that I realized is it's a job where we're always learning. I think there's a lot of room for growth if you're somebody that is motivated to keep learning if you see yourself as a lifelong learner. I think I fit into that category and I think that's one of the reasons why I think the field is appealing.

Kym, what about you?

Kym (09:25)
Yeah.

Me? Okay, so I'm gonna count down from four and give anyone who's listening a minute to think about what my undergraduate degree was in. four, three, two, one, theater. I was a theater major. That's what I wanted to do. ⁓ My very first play was when I was a sophomore in high school and it was Into the Woods. Theater people know that that is a wild first show to do. And I was an ugly stepsister and got my eyes pecked out by birds. was what I wanted to do. So I went into undergraduate doing theater. was actually my dad who convinced me to do it. I went into undergrad as a social work major. But he was like, you like to do theater, if this is what you like to do, if this is what you wanna do, then just do it. So I did and had a great time. I started off performing and then pivoted into wardrobe management and actually did it post-college, so graduating from college I worked in wardrobe management at Disney World. I worked at a theater in Rhode Island. I did some work at the Long Wharf. I did some work with the show choir. 

I realized that I'm someone who needs a regular paycheck and a 401k and sort of the instability of theater made me really nervous. So I was kind of floundering for a little bit when I realized that that wasn't gonna be my permanent path. And for years, this is so embarrassing, for, oh my God, I'm about to mention my dad for a second time. For years, my dad, no, there's a 94 % chance he will never hear this. He had been trying to get me to read this book and I'm not a self-help book reader. He'd been trying to get me to read What Color Is Your Parachute and I was just like so downtrodden. Not really I was fine but I felt so rudderless that I read the entire book and post reading the book, it was kind of like, I took away from it what's a job that I had and that I loved and that I think I could see myself doing. So when I was in undergrad, the second semester of my freshman year, I walked into the campus library just looking for a job. I just went there. I had no dreams of working in the library. I had always been a reader, but I was not a library kid. The library was on the other side of town. I had two very, very young siblings and it just wasn't easy to get there. So I was not a library kid, but I was a reader. So I was like, I can do this. And when I, after I'd read the book and I thought back on a job that I'd had that I loved, I realized that it was that one working in this academic library. And I was actually a state employee at the time. I wasn't like a work study student. So my state ID number now was actually issued to me in 2006. Oh, that's wild. Yeah. And it says that when you look it up, that it was issued in 2006, the same number. So it didn't count for me. You know, there was so much space between when I I left and went straight up here. Didn't even really matter. 

So that-That's really what started me down my trajectory. I ended up living in Ohio for a while with my cousin doing the work with Show Choir. And there is a library school in Ohio that library people might be familiar with, Kent State University. I applied and got in, and I don't think I told anybody while I was doing it. Secret library area. and I went and then I got in and I was like, oh, guess people can find out now. And I started library school and moved back to Connecticut and immediately started working in public libraries. So my previous experience had only been academic, but I knew that I wanted to work with teenagers in particular. Kind of like the forgotten child, right? Like I think a lot of people forget that teenagers are, they're tall children, but they're children. And I felt like the public library, like you were saying, Matt, was this, and I guess you too, Ashley, was this space that would grant me the most freedom and flexibility to work with youth in the way that I wanted to in a way that was kind of similar to like a boys and girls club or something like that. And that began the journey. That's how it all began.

Ashley (14:11)
So we've all told a little bit of our story, but none of us have said, how did we get to the State Library?

Kym (14:17)
I can tell you that and I can tell you it almost didn't happen. It really, really didn't. When the job for the children and young adult consultant was posted, it maybe took like 20 minutes before I'd gotten like three text messages from people who were like, did you see this? Did you see this? Are you gonna apply? Are you gonna apply? And I responded to everyone and I was like, never, never, I'm not applying. I don't want this job. And I said to myself and anyone who asked, that I didn't want the job because I really wanted to work with children. Like I wanted to work with youth and I knew that taking the job up at the state would mean that I had to work with adults and that is not the same more.  At least, you know, I wish it was boring, but sometimes I'm like, why are you acting like this 14 year old that I just talked to two minutes ago? It was more of that. was like, man, like, I understand why the kids, you know, are are struggling with the rules, but I'm I'm flabbergasted at why the adults are struggling with the rules. So I just I didn't want to do it. You know, like I wanted to do STEM programs and I wanted, you know, I wanted to go out and do story times on the green.

Ashley (15:04)
Ring?

Kym (15:33)
and I knew that I would be walking away from that if I began the journey for this job. But I'm pretty sure I applied when I was just having a bad day. But I was a user of state library resources. I used them, I came to the training, I borrowed items from the service center. I was a service center super user, I was a state library super user. And when I ultimately decided that maybe I really did want the job. It was because I sort of, I had a growth mindset and like a pivot moment. I was like, okay, I won't be working directly with the kids anymore and that's unfortunate. However, I will be put in the position to have the most impact on the most kids, right? Instead of just the kids in my town, the most impact on the most kids by providing training, services and resources to any youth librarian in the state who would like to receive that, right? And then what I never imagined was that I would ever take my work international, which, you know, I was lucky enough to be able to do. So I think it was just sort of like a mindset shift of, you know, maybe my face is not near their face, but the potential long-term high impact was worth the shift. But I definitely almost didn't do it.

Matt (17:23)
Ashley, how about you?

Ashley (17:28)
I almost didn't do it in a different way. I was not looking at all for a job. It was like three months after COVID lockdown had started. And I was really happy in my job because as you heard me say before, like it really let me do all of these like super creative community-based partner things. And so it was working directly with people as Kym, you kind of, as you were saying, working, getting to work directly with teens.

But I saw the job title and it kind of matched my job. And so then when I started thinking about like, what would that look like for a different kind of library? And it was that I was like picking up on your use of the word impact question, right? Like, and I had done sort of a similar job working in the arts before coming to libraries that was sort of looking at like kind of a field or a region and starting to think about ways to grow that or ways to expand that and ways to empower the people doing that. And so that thinking about that, I was like, okay, I'm just, I'm just going to fill out an application. There's no harm in that. I'm not, I didn't apply to any other job at the time because I wasn't looking. And I had done some trainings with the state library. So I was familiar with some of the folks here at that time. And well, here I am five years later. So I did get, I did take that job. I will say it takes, I think we all go through this when we came here, that it takes a while to make that shift from working in a public space, in a public library, directly with people to coming up here. And I think that's, for me still, I think that's an ongoing and evolving challenge and process. Today I was really overcome at one point of being like, I wish I could just walk and be in the library space. I was missing that feeling of being like in a public open library. ⁓ I still miss that place ⁓ and that work as much as I love what I'm doing now too. 

Matt, how about you?

Matt (19:44)
Yeah, so like both of you, I was not actively looking. So we're three for three.

Kym (19:48)
So none of us wanted to

We want to go home.

Ashley (19:53)
Yeah.

Matt (19:54)
But I was working, so I had made the transition from school libraries to public libraries. So was working at a public library as a reference and a young adult librarian.  You know, at one of the schools I had supervisory experience. So one of my supervisors at the public library actually forwarded me the position, the job description and everything for the job here at the State Library with the director of the, it was at the time was the Library for the Blind and Physically Handicapped, this is it was called, but now known as Connecticut Library for Accessible Books. So that position was open and she just said, I think this is a really good fit for you. You should apply.

I think like all great supervisors, they're kind of looking out for the people that they work with and they want to see somebody who works with them move on and grow when those opportunities present themselves. Yeah, I just figured the same thing, know, no harm in applying and, and, you know, it matched a lot of both my previous work experience, but also things that, you know, working with communities, serving people with disabilities was something that had become you know, increasingly something that I wanted to be focusing on in my career. So I was already doing that a little bit in my previous role. And this allowed me to really expand that role. same now it's been four years in the role.

Kym (21:26)
654. I love this for us. But I love that, right? So I mean, we all had different public library or we all had different public facing library experience and our journeys to get here to the state level were like different and yet similar

That being said, there can sometimes be outdated perspectives on what a library...

Yeah, and the thing is like right there potentially was some truth to it once ⁓ But the field has changed so much Because it's really grown with the needs of the country as a whole. So. sometimes it's funny to kind of like think about some of these things that we hear and we're asked just because it's like, boy, tell me you haven't set foot into a library without telling me you haven't set foot into a library. Other times I think it's helpful because then we know what like misperceptions to squash when we go out into the public.

I don't know about you guys and Matt maybe you because you also worked in like a youth services field when you worked with in reference and with teens, but I want to say raise your hand, but this is audio so say me if you have ever heard like aren't libraries supposed to be quiet? Why is there so much noise in here? Obviously me too. But like I don't know, didn't kids used to play in library? But I guess they didn't, you know, they were very much quiet like study spaces, but I don't know. What do you guys, does that like, does that make you laugh? Is it frustrating? Like, how do we break this? Anyone know?

Ashley (23:26)
Go ahead.

Matt (23:27)
Yeah. So, I mean, I definitely, in, one of the roles I was in, at the, at a school had conversations with administrators where before I came into that job, the library had gone from being a quiet space to a space where you could make noise and a collaborative space, very much in the trajectory that I think, you know, you were just describing, Kym. But that made some people uncomfortable. And I, after having conversations, I came to better understand that part of that discomfort, came from the fact that they had largely followed an academic trajectory. And so for them, the library was a very quiet study space and it was a place that they really revered and cared about and respected as an institution. A I was having those conversations, wanted to acknowledge and recognize because I had some of that same experience as a history major when using the library. So I could relate to what they were saying.

But I also had been working in the field and interacting with kids and just also tried to help them understand, know, that was how libraries were when you experienced them. But if you haven't been using them, you know, try to visit some other libraries, visit some academic libraries now and see what those spaces are like. And just to help them gain a little bit more a perspective that it wasn't just our library at that particular school that was making this change, but this was part of  larger shift in the way people were sort of framing libraries and how the spaces would be used. So that's sort of just one anecdotal piece that I think I can share with that quiet library question.

Kym (25:11)
the library.

Ashley (25:11)
I think it's like a yes and right? Like I think so many public libraries have a space designated for that quiet. That is still a need, right? And then they also have spaces that are welcome for all different kinds of activities that include noise volume, children's rooms being one right example of that. There's lots of play in there and play isn't quiet always. So I think it's think it's yes and and I think that's important. think like, right. That's like one of the beauties of libraries is like they can respond to the way people are wanting to engage and interact or learn, especially right in a school or academic setting. mean, so many academic libraries have have like now commons spaces, right? Like they're changing the name, right? To like try to indicate, right? Some of that shift, some of that. But I think and I think again, this is what rew me to libraries and this is what continues to evolve, right, I think. Totally.

Matt (26:15)
Yeah, it's very dynamic. hich to me is what makes it exciting. And to your point, like, you know, we were providing those quieter spaces. Of course we And I think every library, you know, that is making those kind of shifts or has made those kind of shifts recognizes the importance for quiet study and wants to preserve that, but also, you know, provide other opportunities for collaboration and experience.

Kym (26:41)
Yeah, yeah, and learning. And I gotta say, know, like, Ashley, you mentioned like, you know, like children's rooms, right? Like that's where things are gonna be allowed. And I remember running into situations where like caregivers would get upset with me that it was kind of loud in the children's room. And I wanna sort of preface this by saying like, not like screaming at the top of your, like that's not what we're talking about, right? We're talking about like, right? And like multiple people having conversation with, ithout whispering. And so when you've got like multiple groups of people having conversations without whispering, then yes, it's gonna get loud. But yeah, no, I would get complaints or just sort of like ⁓ people wanting to express their frustration from...caregivers, right, because they viewed similarly to folks who work in sort of an academic space, administrators and things like that, they viewed the children's space, like, well, I wanna do homework with my third grader n here and it's like, okay, I understand, right? Like you have a child with you, you want your child to be in this space with other children, you don't necessarily want to go to the adult floor. And so like we're trying to figure out how to handle that. 

And they're gonna be urdles depending on the space and financial situation of libraries because while there are some libraries that have like study cubicle, like study rooms with doors that close and things, are gonna be other places that don't have like this space for that or the ability to bring that to fruition. So it is like a balance and I think there is something to be said for especting when someone does need or want just sort of a space to exist, even if it's not to study, right? Even if you're just a little overstimulated and need somewhere quiet to go, I think that's fine. I think that...It's just finding the balance between the two and also communicating with other folks that like this is think about it as a new library if you want to, but sort of this is the new space libraries are homes for a multitude of needs.

I think that's almost the best way. And so we've got to use these buildings, some small, some medium, some large, to meet as many of these community needs as possible. But it certainly is not your dark, dingy, lit by candlelight, echoey walls and ground library. We've moved so far past that.

Matt (29:25)
chained medieval library

Kym (29:27)
Yes,

Ashley (29:27)
You

Kym (29:28)
exactly. We have a movie on that. Come here. Come to the library. But I think one of the... Oh my gosh. Another one that comes up when people talk about libraries. And you see this to like to this very day, someone's typically like holding up a phone or holding up a tablet. Like everything's on the Internet anyway. Like why do we even need libraries? Why do libraries even matter? And...

The big strong feelings that I feel. Sometimes I want them to bubble over like that of a toddler and it I think it ties very closely into what we were just saying about the space, right? So like the library is a space that needs to contain multitudes because not everyone is there for books. Not everyone is there to like blow dust off of an encyclopedia and you know, crack it open and read about whales. Like that's not what's happening anymore. So it almost doesn't matter what's on your phone, not to mention and a lot of the accessibility needs that are tied into this. And I know, Matt, you said that before you'd even come up to the state to work with what ultimately became the Connecticut Library for Accessible Books, right? Those were things that mattered to you. And so I'm just sort of wondering how that phrase makes you feel and just sort of what are some of your thoughts there?

Matt (30:55)
Yeah, the idea that everything is available on the internet. The way I've often started to frame that conversation when I have it with people is to say information is a commodity and a great illustration that I can use as databases, right?

With a lot of databases, as you know, in the library community, you know, especially with a lot of the academic databases, they'll put embargoes on materials. So it's not even available for researchers or, you know, the average person that's using that database for four to five years or something like that. And so, you know, those publishers are controlling the flow of that information to people. And of course, it's certainly that information is not going to be on the internet. So that's where, you know, the library really can help make that connection. 

So that's one way that I've often kind of talked about it is just say, you know, it seems like everything's free, but really, like when it comes to good, trustworthy information, it's often...kind of is controlled and regulated by somebody. And libraries often are playing the sort of intermediary and providing that access. And not often, that is what they do. So that is, think, how I often first approach it. And then you mentioned the accessibility thing. I think now one of the interesting things about as different formats have evolved and technology has evolved is that we do have a wider sense of information and how it can be consumed. It doesn't just have to be the printed word, so it can be consumed in audio format. And I think that, you know, at one point that that format was originally created specifically those talking books were created for people who were blind. That was the origins of, you know, the National Library Service for the Blind and Print Disabled and, you know, all their network libraries like the Connecticut Library for Accessible Books. But over time, people realized, you know, even if they didn't have some sort of disability that maybe qualified them for service from that kind of library that, hey, audiobooks are great. I can listen to them on my commute. I can listen to them on a long trip. could, you for whatever, know, however you wanted to choose to listen to them and whatever that reason is, often can be a very compelling reason. So I think that's another thing that is, oftentimes, and we've heard this, especially in the context of talking about accessibility, often what was designed with one community or one need in mind ends up benefiting everybody. I think those audio books and multiple formats is just a great way of talking and illustrating that point.

Kym (33:50)
as an audiobook lover, here, here. But, know, Ashley, yeah, you worked a lot in administration in your previous library job. So did those offices get rowdy in the library?

Ashley (34:08)
I mean, there was, yes, we always got rowdy. mean, sparks rowdiness. And I think with this question of like, everything's on the internet, I could just Google it or whatever to find information or books too. think that's... 

And I will say I'm like a relatively new audiobook listener. Really, thanks to Kym, because she yeah, she kept nudging me. And I was like, I was really committed to. Well, I was really committed to printed books for most of my adult life on. I know I was going to say  until I had my first child and I was like, I can't hold a baby and read a paperback book at the same time. So.

Kym (34:45)
that for another

Ashley (34:55)
that was when I started reading electronically. And then I think it must, might only be two years ago or so that I then started listening to audio books. But these things back to Matt's point about these, this is a commodity. These are not inexpensive things if you buy them. And so the fact that I can use, thank you to the state library, the palace app to access these audio books. I mostly use it for audio books. that's me.

But it saves me as a user, as an individual, I recognize and deeply appreciate the investments that go into providing this because it saves the user, right? It saves a family, it saves things. And I think the other thing, Matt, as I was listening to you with audio books is, and I know you talk about this in a lot of your outreach with CT lab sometimes, is that you can listen together. And I think especially for families, now that there's two kids in my world, being able to listen to stories together, there's something different about that than just, you know, it's just another way instead of someone reading, you're all listening and maybe pausing to engage, right? So I think there's just, there's so much and while they are on the internet, I don't have to pay for them at the library.

Kym (36:15)
Absolutely. I think my biggest gripe with that, and again, right, it's like, tell me you haven't set foot into a library without telling me you haven't set foot into a library is like, what do you think is happening in there? know, who do you think is using the library and finds need and use in the library? The library, public libraries in particular, are often a really necessary space for people who are experiencing homelessness, right?

We all were there for COVID and we all realized how...large of a need there was for digital literacy from an adult perspective, not just from the kids perspective, right? So adults were struggling to help their kids with Zoom and Google Classroom and all of these things because there was a hole for digital literacy and that is a space where libraries really do a lot of work and not to mention we also saw, and it's insane, this is less than five years ago and it's like people have already forgotten.

We also realized how few people have high speed internet. So everything is on the internet, but can everybody get to it in the same way and sort of like with the same speed and clarity without having to like basically like throw your computer like, know, like on your nearest soft surface because computers cost a lot of money to get a page to load faster, right? So, you know, set the books aside and set the, libraries are often heating centers and cooling centers, and we are in New England, for the love of God, we get all four seasons, and there's a need for the space. So it's not even necessarily what's in the library from a physical perspective with books and books on CD and audio books. It's the people who work in this space and the physical space itself for the people who need it, right? Like I've helped people who were in the foster care system and they might've had a phone but they didn't have minutes for it and they didn't have a wifi. So they needed the space, right? People who are living in shelters and don't have regular access to a computer at all and they're trying to get out of that predicament so they need to apply for jobs. how do you do that in the year 2025? The internet. So it's just kind of insane to me how this was a big talking point, the digital need and digital connectivity than five years ago and we are still hearing people just revert right well I can get all the books I need off of Amazon you know I can get all the information I need off of the internet like we forgot we forgot that there are people like parked in Dunkin Donuts parking lots and McDonald's parking lots and library parking lots for internet access it just burns my buttons

Ashley (39:11)
Yeah, I think speaking of, I don't know if it was a rowdy conversation and my administration colleagues at the time, but you know, when when COVID started and at the beginning of it, I was in a public library still. And I think one of the, we were as so many where we were ordered to close our doors and go remote fully. And that was sort of this like these really kind of heartbreaking conversations about we knew that that meant we were not giving things that people needed, right? Whether that was a place to be during the day for someone experiencing homelessness or whether that was access to the internet. I think, you know, libraries, some quickly, some slowly like reacted and responded to that in all different ways, right? Whether that was like then expanding their internet into the parking lot 24 hours a day so that people could could come and safely be distant and, and access that. so I feel like..And that, you know, in that sort of year or so, libraries at least quickly learned just how much their communities needed them specifically for that digital access, because high speed internet is another commodity that costs a lot of money. So  for libraries to be an equalizer for that kind of access is really, important. But yes, we, think that, you know, broadly that's still a conversation that is happening, right, and something that I think libraries are pretty well versed at communicating about at this point.

Kym (40:50)
Matt, there's a thing you mentioned. There's a thing I mentioned. There's a thing Ashley did not mention, but I am sure it is true for her. And that is library school. You have to go to school for that. You need a degree to do that. But I knew it was there.

Ashley (41:05)
I jumped right into the library. No, went to school first.

Kym (41:11)
As a vehement watcher of the Tiki Tok every, I don't know, 10 months or so for some reason, the internet is like, what do you go to library school for? What do you learn in library school? And listen, it's important many times.

I don't really use cataloging, but I don't really use that at all. But there's other stuff in there that was important. Yes, we all went to library school. Yes, we had to. Yeah, there are big feelings about it because talk about commodities. That's that's a big one. But we went and it's important. And, you know, we are we are highly educated to be in like  to thrive and provide and serve in this field and the just look of shock on people's faces when they find out like my little my little feelings are a little hurt. Why are you looking at me like this? Yes, I did go to library school. Is anyone else? Am I the only one with big feelings for all things? Sometimes I feel like I am because I say it really loudly. There's that theater.

Ashley (42:25)
I them.

Kym (42:26)
theater degree on the wall in my parents basement.

Matt (42:31)
I had a very good friend when I first started going to library school said, why do you have to go to school to learn how to stamp the due dates in the back of books? And you know, he was, you know, I think partially, you know, ribbing me good naturedly. But it also kind of spoke to just a lack of understanding. Is that someone was that?

Kym (42:39)


Ashley (42:53)
I said, you're kind.

Matt (42:56)
Well, I mean, it would have been a different story if I didn't know the person I think I have responded a little differently because I knew him. He was a good friend. I was kind of going to give him a little bit of the benefit of the doubt in that case. But it does kind of speak to a larger lack of understanding or awareness, I think, on the part of most people who aren't in the field about what library workers do and their role.

And yeah, that's, think that's one of our challenges. I've often said, like as a field, we're not great about like championing our own cause. think maybe that's changed a little bit recently, but by and large, like we have a hard time talking about ourselves and maybe, you know, I don't know all of the reasons for me personally, I can say, you know, it's just, humility as a part of it, know, as kind of just the way I was brought up and you know, kind of, you know, to put your head down, do your work, know, do your best you can kind of thing. And so for me, I think that is something that I am always combating against in any kind of situation when it causes for like, kind of advocating for the profession or like what we do and things like that is just, you know, and sometimes I think we take it for granted that people understand what libraries are, but and what they do, but it's a lot more complex than, you know, just stamping a due date in the back of a book.

Kym (44:26)
Yeah, I was gonna say, not for nothing. We don't even stamp anymore. So now what? Now what? It prints on its own. Do you have big feelings about this?

Ashley (44:36)
You know, I think my feelings are maybe a little different. know, like I did, obviously you learned so much in graduate school, right? And there's things that we did, like a whole cataloging course that I was not terribly great at and didn't use. Thank goodness, I think. But I also have to say, think, you I did an internship while I was in school and I had sort of an archival focus at the time thinking that that would maybe relate to my art history degree. that experience of interning in that archive, which was in a university in an academic library, was really key. And then, of course, like so much, you know, as much as I learned in school, I think I learned so much on the job.

Right? Like so much just being tossed in and starting. And so for me, it's really hard to, you need both or I feel like you need both. know, if I had just gone to library school, I don't think I would have the understanding and awareness of what a library is in the same way. So I loved that I sort of paired that sort of live working experience with the education because that made it come alive for me in a way that I think just being in a classroom would not have so.

Kym (45:54)
So I started library school in 2011, feels like the right number. And I had my first full-time library job in 2012. And it took me, cough, cough, five years to get out of grad school, but it's fine. So I was...Also, yeah, working going to school and working at the same time. Yeah. Now there are a few things that I will say, I completely agree with you about the importance of the on the job learning. I remember taking classes on like early childhood development and early childhood programming. And, you know, one of the things that we learned, right, like was how the brain develops. Right. So I mean, like we're looking at brains and we're learning how the brain develops how that impacts the potential actions or interactions or lack of actions of like the child, right? Like maybe not your child because there are a lot of other things that go into that, but like the child. And these are things that like people who interact with kids, some parents and caregivers might have no idea, right? So things like that were really great and really useful. Now when I took the part of the class on story times, I was like, look at me. I know how story time goes. I know what to do. I know where to get the songs and books, I know why we're doing this, phonemic awareness. My first story time, I'm like, so they don't just sit on the carpet squares and listen to me go through this perfectly outlined? was like, man, this isn't gonna work. 

So yeah, there's definitely a need, but one of the things that I can say because I knew that I wanted to work in youth services, I took, think three selection and acquisition courses. And before I even, well, because I was in public libraries at the time, but if I wasn't, then before I'd even stepped foot into public libraries, I would have already been a much more well-read person than I had if I hadn't taken those classes. Because while I was a book reader, I was a very specific type of book reader. Like if it wasn't, if it didn't fit in the Venn diagram of A or B, I wasn't reading it, I wasn't reading it and I wasn't touching it. But taking those selection and acquisition classes really made me a broader reader, which ultimately made me a better reader's advisor for youth and family. yeah, there is a need, I think the reason why I of hang my hat.

on like, yeah, we did go to library school. Like, yeah, it's important. I like to hope that it puts a little bit of validity behind our degree, right?

So where do we think libraries are going, right? Like thinking about the world as it is and the needs as they exist, future needs. And Ashley's done a lot of work in future school. I most sometimes remember it. But just sort of where do we think the trajectory of libraries is gonna lead us?

Matt (49:14)
Ashley, do you want to tell us a little bit about some of the scenarios that have come up?

Ashley (49:19)
So many scenario some of you might be familiar with the future school that we've been running for, let's see, almost five years, I think at this point, with IMLS support for most of that. And this is like a three day intensive, three very full days, I'm sure you both remember, of training. And at this point, there's over 600 library staff that have gone through this training from across the country. And so really what it does is kind of empower you with a lot of skills and tools and ways of dissecting sort of and scanning our environment and all of that to really think and be prepared and take action for multiple possible futures, right? So we can think of like, we often use kind of three different terms, right? So there's the fortress future, which is really sort of dark and right. You can imagine that. Or sort of a market future, which is kind of like status quo, no real drop down, no real like ramp up. Or an abundant future where sort of, right, there's lots of possibilities and flourishing. ⁓ But a question we ask each participant before they come in to the program is, you have been transported.

50 years into the future, what does the future of libraries look like? ⁓ I'll let each of you answer that if you want to, but I will say again, like those kind of three versions, those three circumstances that we envision, people's answers, and it's, have to say, so much fun to get to do all of these one-on-one interviews with librarians from all across the country. The answers, like, you know, some people be like, let's see, 50 years, I'll be dead. So I have gotten that answer a times and it makes me laugh. But some people, know, pump, some people do go like really dark into questioning, like, will there even be libraries? Um, some people see the like library staff as becoming this sort of like superhero underground force for good, providing all the information to people, maybe in indiscreet ways so that.

Kym (51:12)
Good luck.

Ashley (51:33)
You know, they're not caught if that can't be sort of like something that's out in the open to, course, like people see it as sort of, you know, a turn and there's this abundance and flourishing and endless investments and, possibilities. So. you can really take that question in any direction. I think I still remember what I, what I shared, when asked that question before I did the program myself and that I was like, well, it's about it's people.

And for me, that's true in the future of libraries. And it's true today. I really see libraries as reflective. And I'm sure if you listened back to the beginning of why I came into libraries, like this makes sense, right? Like I saw libraries as being spaces that responded to what their communities wanted them to be. And I think that's sort of at the core. I would hope to see that in the future as well.

Matt (52:31)
Yeah, as you were talking and I was listening, was thinking, and you just wrapped up with that, responsiveness to the community. And I think that's one of the tenets of that I think about when I think about the future of libraries is that, you know, and I think that's some of the things we talked about earlier where, you know, how libraries have evolved, you know, that's, that is in fact a great example of how they're responding to community needs. So I, I think that being like, no matter what some of the details are like big picture wise, I think, you responsive to the community.

I think another key trait or element in our field as we think about the future of libraries will be access to information and connecting people with information. So no matter what the format is, how many print books they have versus digital, in audio, braille, talking book, and everything else in between, as we said earlier, information is not free and somebody is always going to be regulating access to some information.

Librarians are going to, I think, prove their value and to their communities and that's one of the ways that they respond to their communities needs is by connecting them with the information that they need. So those are the two things that really come to mind when I think about the future of libraries.

Kym (53:49)
No, I don't know. And I've had like time to plan for this. I think I agree with both of you and I think that libraries are gonna continue to provide support and uplift their community in the ways that sort of best fit what they are set up to do. I like to also think this is something that we're always trying to do better with in public libraries is building relationships with other entities to also put people in touch with, right? So I like to say that libraries and librarians don't know everything, but we can find you the answer to everything. So if someone is on the brink of experiencing some sort of homelessness or houselessness, I can't fix that, but I know exactly who to call to provide you with the most support that you can probably get in this state, right? So we don't know everything, but we can get you almost everywhere that you need to go within reason. So I like to think that we will continue to grow and expand and provide support for that in any way that we can. And I think sort of similar to you, Matt, like I think there are gonna be bumps, there's gonna be bruises, there's gonna be ups, there's gonna be downs, but I think for the most part libraries are gonna continue to champion and fight for the public good, does that feel too Superman? I don't even like Superman. But I just started watching.

Ashley (55:25)
Do you know what's national Batman day? think it's national Batman. Batman. I was told to dress my two year old in a superhero costume. I failed to do that today, but it was, I walked in and there was multiple kids in my Batman gear. know, I know, I know he's not a superhero, but so you mentioned superheroes. I should have borrowed something. I could have borrowed something.

Kym (55:41)
Next time call me.

Matt (55:47)
Well, I think the library world in Gotham City would be very much that fortress mindset. Like if think about the landscape that Batman sort of inhabits, that would be a great example. What does a library look like in Gotham City?

Ashley (56:03)
start.

Kym (56:03)
Underground information distribution center. We are the rebels. But those are shirts that say like libraries are like the first kind of punk rock or something like that. Like whatever it is. Someone send me that shirt. But I think libraries are going to continue to do what it is that they're doing, which is just like right. Like, like, God, fighting for the people. It sounds so corny. But it's the truth. It's very much.

Ashley (56:28)
Yeah, it's what you were saying Kym reminds me of something I used to say when I was in administrative role at a public library that I used to say to some of my colleagues was that I want anyone to be able to walk in the door and get like the first step to whatever it is that they need right like but just your example of like, I am not going to be able to solve someone's individual crisis, right? But I can tell you step one, right? I can tell you like resource one, phone call one, whatever it is, it's going to be different for every single thing. But like that was my hope, right? My goal for that library.

Kym (57:10)
And with that, honestly, libraries are awesome. Ashley's awesome. Matt's awesome. I'm awesome. Kym's awesome. Kym's awesome. You're welcome. But thank you to everyone for listening to this episode of Under the Charter Oak. Again, a podcast of the Connecticut State Library where we preserve the past to inform the future.

Ashley (57:44)
you